Hello Germany!?

Hello to our German friends!

If you look at the ACS Blogs statistics, the top 4 countries that show up are no surprise: the USA, Canada, the UK and Australia. Yet the 5th country that ranks the most which we have had thousands of views from is a surprise: Germany.

Now many Germans have English as a 2nd language (or 3rd or 4th), and Germany does  have a sizable Catholic population- yet neither explain such interest in our Patrimony. I am sure some of those views come from those who call an Ordinariate home visiting Germania, but not around a few thousand- nowhere near.

It does make me wonder if German Lutheran eyes are watching us, as they are the only other Christian group Personal Ordinariates would be erected for.

If you are a German Lutheran interested in coming ‘Home to Rome’ (or anyone else for that matter), you might want to touch base with the Coming Home Network, and if you are a married clergyman, you might be interested in this section.

Oh and the 6th highest traffic country is the Philippines, which has a group wishing to enter an Ordinariate. More on them later…..

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16 Responses to Hello Germany!?

  1. Richee says:

    Yes! From the Philippines here. If ever an Ordinariate will be ereted in our Country for sure a multitude of Episcopalians and Methodist and Aglipayandls will enter into full communion to Rome!

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    • Rev22:17 says:

      Is my memory off, or did I see a relatively recent comment somewhere about a congregation of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross forming in the Philippines?

      It should be a possibility if there are groups that are interested since that ordinariate already has two congregations in Japan. If enough communities come, they could form a deanery and eventually split off as another ordinariate.

      Norm.

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  2. Jeff Hirst says:

    This is most interesting. At one time there was talk of a Lutheran ordinariate being set up. Does anyone out there in the blogosphere know if any progress has been made with this. Here in the UK Lutheranism is very small, but I guess in the US it is a very different picture.
    Similarly with the news from the Philippines, High Church Methodism as represented by the Wesley Sacramental Fellowship, while an important strand, is not really representative of the bulk of Methodism, which went in a different direction.
    It would be interesting to know what interest there is in the Aglipayan -Philippine Independent Church – towards the ordinaries. Perhaps Richee would be kind enough to give us more details.

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    • The Independent Church is facing the same issues a Protestantizing trend in what is a church of the Catholic tradition. There is some interest but historical and political reasons may make it harder for Independent Church congregations to reconcile with the Roman Church.

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      • William Tighe says:

        The Independent Church has purported to ordain women since 1997; I don’t know if they have any flaminicae (women bishops) yet. It seems to me to be merely a clone or “running dog” of The Episcopal “Church.”

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    • Rev22:17 says:

      Ecumenical dialog between the Roman curia (Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity) and the Lutheran World Federation seems to be going very well. The public documents from this dialog are available on the Vatican’s web site, and they do show tremendous progress toward ecclesial reconciliation, identifying opportunities for collaboration while identifying several issues that remain unresolved and suggesting a path forward. Frequent visits of Lutheran officials to the Vatican, many of which also include private papal audiences, also suggest very strongly that there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes, most likely including discussion of ecclesial structures that would allow Lutherans to maintain their own liturgical and pastoral customs and their own hierarchies and pastoral leadership within the Catholic Church. Let’s not forget that former Anglican bishops John Broadhurst, Andrew Burnham, and Keith Newton made more than a few visits to the Vatican in which they developed the entire process and timeline for canonical erection of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham and reception of its original communities. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that some Lutheran leaders are not already engaged in similar discussions, but there won’t be an announcement until it happens.

      There’s also no doubt that the present ordinariates are prototypes for reconciliation of groups of Christians from various Protestant traditions as well as for groups of Christians from the Anglican tradition. I think that the Vatican would erect an ordinariate pretty quickly for any group of Lutherans who were prepared to accept the fullness of Catholic doctrine. Nevertheless, the Vatican probably would prefer that the entire Lutheran World Federation would come into full communion as an intact body rather than having some groups detach from it to come into the full communion of the Catholic Church.

      Norm.

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      • William Tighe says:

        Norm wrote:

        “Frequent visits of Lutheran officials to the Vatican, many of which also include private papal audiences, also suggest very strongly that there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes, most likely including Frequent visits of Lutheran officials to the Vatican, many of which also include private papal audiences, also suggest very strongly that there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes, most likely including discussion of ecclesial structures that would allow Lutherans to maintain their own liturgical and pastoral customs and their own hierarchies and pastoral leadership within the Catholic Church. Let’s not forget that former Anglican bishops John Broadhurst, Andrew Burnham, and Keith Newton made more than a few visits to the Vatican in which they developed the entire process and timeline for canonical erection of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham and reception of its original communities. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that some Lutheran leaders are not already engaged in similar discussions. Let’s not forget that former Anglican bishops John Broadhurst, Andrew Burnham, and Keith Newton made more than a few visits to the Vatican in which they developed the entire process and timeline for canonical erection of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham and reception of its original communities. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that some Lutheran leaders are not already engaged in similar discussions …”

        The problem with this “similitude,” as I see it, is that while these Anglicans whom you mention by name (we mustn’t forget that there was a largely secret approach to the Vatican from ca. 2008 onwards by more “mainstream conservative” – a few of whom purported to ordain women – Church of England Anglican bishops, which went on for some time without any concrete result – the group included the quondam of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali and I know the names of some of the others – and the purpose of which, whether to reach some sort of accord with Rome or to use the conversations as “leverage” within the ongoing struggles within the Church of England is not clear; but these conversations may have had a role in pushing forward the process that resulted in Anglicanorum coetibus ) were, in Catholic terms, orthodox, and one of the motives for their approach to Rome was their perception of the slide into doctrinal and moral decay, if not outright apostasy, on the part of their native “ecclesial communities,” this is not the case with these Lutherans. Most of these latter seem wholly content with their “ecclesial communities'” practice of not only the pretended ordination of women, and not only their increasingly determined attempts to exclude men opposed to the ordination of women from ordination, but also with what I term SS (“the sanctification of sodomy”) by purporting to bless homosexual pseudogamy and to ordain men and women in such pretended marriages. Can Rome be so disingenuous, naive, or stupid – for it can hardly be uninformed on these matters – as to encourage such Lutherans, contentedly on the downward slide to apostasy, to engage in “discussion of ecclesial structures that would allow Lutherans to maintain their own liturgical and pastoral customs and their own hierarchies and pastoral leadership within the Catholic Church” without making it clear to them that ” their own liturgical and pastoral customs” do not include the ordination of women and the blessing of homosexual pseudogamy, which, rather, they will have to repudiate and eschew in order to move towards Catholic unity.

        There is a dialogue separate from that between the Vatican and the (largely liberal) Lutheran World Federation going on between the Vatican and the “confessionally orthodox” Lutheran bodies that comprise the “International Lutheran Council” – a dialogue which was enthusiastically fostered by Benedict XVI – but these Lutheran churches do not accept the 1999 “Joint Declaration on Justification,” viewing it (in some cases) as a betrayal of Lutheran doctrine or at least (in others) as “a fudge” which glosses over, or ignores, what they view as important aspects of Catholic./Lutheran divergence. Under the present pontificate this latter dialogue has continued, but without much expectation of concrete results on either side. Certainly, though, these ILC Lutherans are not seeking or calling for “eucharistic hospitality” right now, as they believe that communio in sacris is the result of agreement in doctrine, and not a step along the way to it.

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      • William Tighe says:

        Or, as a friend of mine just commented, privately, much more concisely than I have done:

        “The parallel doesn’t work because Anglicans, like Catholics, believe the episcopate is necessary, and the men mentioned, who became the ordinariate, pretty much already believed Catholic teaching. A “Lutheran” ordinariate would be as nonsensical as a “Presbyterian” or “Baptist” one. I didn’t know the confessional Lutherans were talking to us; good of course. But since the two theologies are incompatible I don’t see it going anywhere.”

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  3. Jeff Hirst says:

    I meant Ordinariates, of course, though I hope they are interested in the ordinaries. Sorry!

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  4. porys says:

    And what about Poland? Do you have many

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    • porys says:

      Sorry my post was cut. I mean on which position is Poland?
      I know there ale two Polish people here – me and Godefrey1098

      Liked by 1 person

      • William Tighe says:

        Lutherans in Poland number, IIRC, about 65,000. They are commendably conservative, refusing to ordain women (and so resisting all that inevitably follows from it). I do not think that is much interest, on either the Lutheran or Catholic side, in “reunion” with Rome. The Orthodox, on the one hand, are a more considerable presence in Poland than the Lutherans, numbering well over half a million members, while the Catholic Church, on the other, may well be more interested in the (uncertain) prospects of reunion with the Polish branch of the “Polish National Catholic Church” here in the USA – the “Polish Catholic Church” as it terms itself – and with the “orthodox branch” of the Mariavites. The former numbers about 20,000 members at most, while the latter may be slightly larger.

        On the Mariavites, see:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariavite_Church

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Mariavite_Church

        and on the “Polish Catholic Church” see:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Catholic_Church

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      • Rev22:17 says:

        The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) is predominantly an American body, though it now has a diocese in Canada. Thus, the Vatican delegated the lead on ecumenical dialog with the PNCC to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). The dialog concluded that there is no doctrinal obstacle to restoration of communion well over a decade ago, but there are a lot of practical issues that need to be resolved — including (1) the fact that some clergy, including bishops, of the PNCC are active Masons, (2) the fact that some clergy of the PNCC are former Catholic clergy, and (3) the fact that most, if not all, PNCC bishops are married. Ongoing discussions undoubtedly are addressing these issues, with the process also most likely now encompassing the newly formed Nordic Catholic Church (which is the PNCC’s partner in the Union of Scranton).

        The PNCC already has valid orders and thus valid sacraments, so its reunification will take a different process than the formation of the present ordinariates of the Anglican tradition. The PNCC and the Nordic Catholic Church will become new ecclesial structures of the Catholic Church, with all clergy — including the married bishops — retaining their respective offices as of the time of reunion, by a stroke of the papal pen. The PNCC could become the first sui juris church of the Roman Rite, with the “Prime Bishop” becoming a major archbishopric.

        Norm.

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  5. Jeff Hirst says:

    The Nordic Catholic Church in the UK is very small indeed. There was talk at one time of it linking up with the Free Church of England. Later there was further talk of the Traditional Anglican Church, which no longer has an active website, splitting by mutual agreement from the Traditional Anglican Communion, and likewise joining the NCC. I’ve not been able to find any up to date information on either of these situations. Does anyone out there know the current state of play? If the NCC and the PNCC do eventually unite with Rome, how might this affect the Ordinariates in the respective countries?

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    • Rev22:17 says:

      I also have heard through the “blogosphere” that The Traditional Anglican Church (TTAC) in the United Kingdom severed ties with the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) and joined the Nordic Catholic Church (NCC). However, the former TTAC congregations were, and probably still are, very small. The only congregation of the TTAC of significant size was St. Agatha’s Parish in Portsmouth, which entered the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham with former TAC bishop Robert Mercer some time earlier.

      Note that the NCC is still pretty small. It has one bishop, based in Oslo. The web site lists established congregations in Norway (5), Sweden (2), Germany (7), Hungary (2), France (4), and Italy (2) plus clergy/missions in Switzerland (2) and the United Kingdom (5). I think that most of the clergy in England are former TTAC clergy.

      Fundamentally, the reception of the PNCC and the NCC into the full communion of the Catholic Church would have no impact of consequence on any of the ordinariates. They come from a different tradition, and their present ecclesial structures would remain substantially intact — and distinct from the ordinariates — in the Catholic Church.

      Norm.

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  6. Jeff Hirst says:

    I agree with Norm that the Traditional Anglican Church’s congregations are very small – in some cases, I suspect, only existing on paper. The NCC in the UK is presently organised as oratories – nb House Churches. My understanding is that the priests of the NCC have come straight from the Church of England. None of them were listed on the old TTAC website.
    There are a bewildering array of ‘Old Catholic’ churches in this country, all tiny, most springing in one way or another from Archbishop Mathew. What this does is for the first time bring an Old Catholic presence to the UK with a pedigree and orders that no-one can dispute.

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